Comments on The Burd Report: The law of diminishing returns

You may be right, Ben, that RIDE checks are inneff...

2009-10-20T09:49:27.229-04:00

You may be right, Ben, that RIDE checks are inneffective, but you provide no credible evidence to support your assertion. (For example, how many of us will revert to drinking and driving if RIDE checks were suspended? In your post there is not even a hint that you've considered this question.)

On the other hand, the MADD web site provides both data and persuasive argument to the effect that lowered BAC limits with more aggressive checks will reduce drunk driving even further.

I'm gonna' sign off on this issue with the following comments:

One may, for the most part, without incident or interference with respect to the anonymity, integrity, and security of one’s person, walk drunk as a skunk down the street, but one may not lawfully drive in such a state.

The RIDE program attempts to ferret out people who do drive drunk. We have determined that anyone drunk behind the wheel of a vehicle is a clear and present danger to all of the rest of us. We need not, therefore, wait for some such person to injure, maim, or kill another of us prior to apprehending him or her. We may lawfully act to apprehend in the manner of what is termed prior restraint. The claim that the RIDE program violates civil rights is therefore quite without merit.

The further claim that prior restraint of drunk drivers, in and of itself, foretells the rise of the police state is suspect. No facts or arguments are marshalled to support this additional claim. It seems part of an effort intended not to convince us but rather to bowl us over. We can and we ought to resist this effort, because we know that we are not playing a game of bowls, but of life and death.

William: Demagoguery is my stock in trade. I valu...

2009-10-20T08:53:41.348-04:00

William:

Demagoguery is my stock in trade. I value it highly and thank you for noticing. I left out the very nub of my argument regarding the .05 roadside suspension law. It's just this simple: .05 is the beginning of a very slippery slope.

Eliminating the right to face your accusers in open court isn't merely a Charter issue -it, in and unto itself, flies in the face of fundamental justice.

Yes, I'm a demogogue all right. But whenever the mention of fascism shows up in any argument these days, this old demagogue gets confused and starts combining all the wrong names -like Benito Fantino or Julian Mussolini -that kind of thing.

Just getting old I guess....

DJC

Ben Burd said... To clarify, my position is simpl...

2009-10-19T21:46:44.865-04:00

Ben Burd said...
To clarify, my position is simple RIDE checks have to go, they are ineffective and expensive, Normal policing will catch the buggars.

Normal policing did not catch the drunk who killed my very best friend during our second year of college. The justice system failed from the beat cop right up to the trial judge and everyone in between.

I don't want to give up any of my rights any more than I want to die the way my friend did - slowly, painfully, and uselessly.

And as Forrest Gump used to say:

That's all I have to say about that.

To clarify, my position is simple RIDE checks have...

2009-10-19T16:22:54.556-04:00

To clarify, my position is simple RIDE checks have to go, they are ineffective and expensive, Normal policing will catch the buggars. Look at today's MSM and you will see more miscreants caught by normal police methods not RIDE

From the MADD Canada website: "The fact is t...

2009-10-19T15:04:59.666-04:00

From the MADD Canada website:

"The fact is that impaired driving remains, by far, the No. 1 criminal cause of death in Canada. In 2006, impairment-related crashes claimed 1,278 lives -- more than twice as many as all types of homicide combined. Unfortunately, the number and percentage of impaired driving deaths have been rising, and in 2006 exceeded the 1999 levels....

"Laboratory, driving simulator and closed access roadway studies over the last five decades have established that even small amounts of alcohol adversely affect driving skills and performance. Not surprisingly, the international trend has been to lower permissible BAC levels. Virtually every jurisdiction that has done so has experienced significant and sustained reductions in impaired driving deaths and injuries."

Here's a link.

Dan Christie's claim that civil rights are inv...

2009-10-19T14:51:46.525-04:00

Dan Christie's claim that civil rights are involved in this discussion is wholly fatuous. His suggestion, that if we allow RIDE, we might as well have prohibition, is not worth the paper it's not printed on--thanks for that line, Dan. His attempt to associate aggressive RIDE efforts with fascism is demagoguery.

The issue is, as Ben stated in the lead to his post: diminishing returns. If the MADD proposal doesn't do the job, what will? Ben suggests putting first offenders in jail. If that approach works, there should be data to support. If there is/are such data, then (dollars to donuts) MADD will support that approach, too.

I'm for going down any road that will manage the (so far) unmageable few who continue to drink and drive even after their licenses have been suspended.

Then there are the youthful many who attain both driving age and drinking age, but seem not to be able to manage both at the same time. How do we manage them? Let me guess, Ben: lock them all up in jail and throw the key away, right?

Google DAMM -Drunks Against Madd Mothers. There&#...

2009-10-18T18:15:31.741-04:00

Google DAMM -Drunks Against Madd Mothers.

There's too many chapters to be bothered poting just one link. Seems the base is in Pennsylvania.

DJC

Simple, William: Outlaw driving altogether which, ...

2009-10-18T02:08:46.516-04:00

Simple, William: Outlaw driving altogether which, as is so oten stated but never challenged "Is a privelege -not a right." Ergo, it's already a right that's been ceded, downgraded to the whim of some bureaucrat whose wife you might be fooling around with.

But, William, your having taken what I might call the 'Lou Dobbs' side of the argument, and having read that any measures are just A-OK with you because you don't drink and drive (but you seem to have read into all this that I do)I wonder what other areas of 'civil liberty(s)' erosion you might approve of. What other not-proven-in-court seizure would warm the cockles of your heart and to what extent would you allow the police to be judge and jury and under what circumstances?

Oh yes, impaired driving is heinous indeed. And if our system of dealing with it requires a pro active approach (ie: if a cop thinks a person JUST MIGHT GET HAMMERED TONIGHT SO WE'D BETTER TAKE AWAY THEIR CAR THIS MORNING!)then what other crimes-to-be might we proactivly move on for the betterment of society as a whole? Not fully declaring our income maybe? How about tresspassing? If we arrest a person before he leaves his house we've prevented another potential trespass, haven't we? And we did it for the best of reasons: He was leaving his house and therefore .05 of our argument indicates he intended to trespass. Thank goodness we were there to nip it in the bud.

No, William, I don't drink and drive. Like Ben, I drive for a living. I follow Real Estate Rule #1: If you like draught beer as much as I do never buy a house that isn't walking distance from a decent pub -preferably a decent pub where reasonable people reasonably discuss the Fantino-ization of Ontario and the erosion of their 'civil liberties' as you call them.

DJC

Anon! S/he wants to know how far I will go. Just ...

2009-10-17T12:40:50.353-04:00

Anon! S/he wants to know how far I will go. Just as far as those Mothers will let me!

Furthermore, I won't (personally or otherwise) have to give up anything to get there, because I don't drink and drive.

If you do, DJC, then I want you off the road and out of the car. You don't have a civil right to act with reckless abandon.

But the question remains: how can we deal with the recalcitrant few who drink and drive even after license suspension and insurance cancellation?

I have to side with DJC on this one. While I would...

2009-10-16T16:37:28.806-04:00

I have to side with DJC on this one. While I would like to see legitimately drunk drivers off the road, it seems to me the standards are way too high, and the newest roadside limits are ridiculous.

Of course I am also shaken by the image of that lantern jawed straight shooter, who I long ago learned to fear. But that aside, our "society" is being taken over by those types and our individual freedom, including the right to each go to hell in our own way, is being removed from us. The smoking laws are a prime example.

William: .08 is the threshold for the Criminal Co...

2009-10-16T13:52:15.788-04:00

William:

.08 is the threshold for the Criminal Code charge of impaired driving. But .05 is the threshold for roadside seizure of your vehicle without the submission of any evidence other than that of the prosecution, in this case, a cop with a breathalizer. No messy judges or juries. Just the word of a lantern-jawed straight shooter who wouldn't tell a lie if his life depended on it.

That said, why don't we enact roadside seizure at .03 or .01 or nothing whatsoever? Why not bring back Prohibition and outlaw drinking all together? Even in the home or out in the garage? Further, why not cede every civil right we have over to lantern-jawed straight shooters who wouldn't tell a lie if their lives depended on it?

Over to you, William. How far do you and Mothers Against Drunk Drivers want to go on this particular crusade? How much are you personally willing to give up?

DJC

Putting RIDE checks outside the front doors of bar...

2009-10-16T13:21:56.623-04:00

Putting RIDE checks outside the front doors of bars and pubs will help catch more drunks. Let's do it. Cars leaving premises with designated (sober) drivers will pass through without consequence, just as they do at other RIDE checks. Cars leaving without designated drivers will be taken off the road.

There are, apparently, those who drive without licenses and/or insurance after their licenses have been suspended--perhaps for drunk driving. How to apprehend them? What to do with them?

PS. Civil liberties my foot! Thanks, Jack, for caving on this issue.

At the pub where I can be found of an evening ther...

2009-10-15T19:43:21.154-04:00

At the pub where I can be found of an evening there's an 8-sided plastic fishbowl full of breath mints on the bar -presumably to disguise the smell of alcohol on the breath before leaving.

The fishbowl is a charity donation fishbowl -the charity being Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.

The pub owner tells me MADD (and the .05 tactic) are putting him out of business. So, I asked, why allow the fishbowl on your bar?

To which he said: Do you think I want a RIDE check outside my front door?

Is 'fascism' one 's' or two?

Seems to me we've made a lot of progress on dr...

2009-10-14T18:25:00.635-04:00

Seems to me we've made a lot of progress on drinking and driving with the majority of folks. When I was a young adult it was common to go back-roading in the country with a six pack, and nobody thought anything of it in those days.

It's the ones addicted to alcohol who don't care about the consequences because they are loaded, or don't have the sense to learn to take a cab when they've been imbibing. They will always be a problem.

I worry as much about the drivers out there who have no licence and/or no insurance. They are very scary, and their numbers are growing. I would like to see the cops working to get them off the road too.

When it comes to RIDE I have feelings in both dire...

2009-10-14T13:13:59.999-04:00

When it comes to RIDE I have feelings in both directions. I support the stated intent. I have the same misgivings you express about whether RIDE is an effective way to achieve that stated intent.

It is interesting that Scandanavia has given us more than hockey players like Mats Sundin