Missed the meeting
Didn't get back into Town until 1930hrs, so I missed the big event. I did have great feedback from one person who I knew would be there and although the delegations did give details the big details about operating costs could not be given because the tenders haven't been opened yet.
I guess the invitation for public input should have been, "Ask any questions but we can't give the answers you want if they are financial." Well excuse us folks, after all isn't the operating cost the one item we have to know, as the building is going up for free, the yearly costs should be known! Taxpayers should have no surprises, it is not too late to can the project.
Just as a footnote. I asked my question by downloading the pdf form, filled it out with an online pdf editor and emailed to the Mayor's email address at City Hall. I also cc'd all six councillors and the CAO. Tagged the "send me a receipt button" and waited for a response. Out of of all of these eight people, seven of whom pledged, in their election campaigns, to be responsive and open to questions, I received two receipt notifications, one answer (in two emails) from two Councillors and a very welcome phone call from the CAO. Thanks Stephen, I'll be home next time you phone. Perhaps the Mayor meant, when he asked on the form, if a response is needed, that the CAO, or a minion would be his flunky. I guess the other councillors don't need to respond after all they aren't the Minister of Sports. Although that guy, Councillor "I want to open the Arena" Bob Spooner didn't respond either. Perhaps he will when he figures out how to use email!
I guess the invitation for public input should have been, "Ask any questions but we can't give the answers you want if they are financial." Well excuse us folks, after all isn't the operating cost the one item we have to know, as the building is going up for free, the yearly costs should be known! Taxpayers should have no surprises, it is not too late to can the project.
Just as a footnote. I asked my question by downloading the pdf form, filled it out with an online pdf editor and emailed to the Mayor's email address at City Hall. I also cc'd all six councillors and the CAO. Tagged the "send me a receipt button" and waited for a response. Out of of all of these eight people, seven of whom pledged, in their election campaigns, to be responsive and open to questions, I received two receipt notifications, one answer (in two emails) from two Councillors and a very welcome phone call from the CAO. Thanks Stephen, I'll be home next time you phone. Perhaps the Mayor meant, when he asked on the form, if a response is needed, that the CAO, or a minion would be his flunky. I guess the other councillors don't need to respond after all they aren't the Minister of Sports. Although that guy, Councillor "I want to open the Arena" Bob Spooner didn't respond either. Perhaps he will when he figures out how to use email!
14 comments:
I did get to the meeting at 18.00 hours, but I had to leave at its scheduled finish of 19.00 as I had another engagement. However by that time only two of the five contestants had made their presentations, so I assume the meeting went on until 20.30.
For the town to schedule a time slot of 1 hour for a 2 1/2 hour meeting is itself indicative, since a common theme of the questions from the council was "how can we be sure that the contractors can finish the job on time, to meet the federal payment deadline?" Maybe this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The ability of the contractors to finish by February 2011 is indeed a real problem since there are so many similar construction projects going on across the country that the ability of the suppliers to provide such equipment the chillers for all of them in the next 15 months may well become a problem.
I notice that the town has asked for state of the art heat relamation to be used so that the excess heat from the chillers can be used to heat the building and thus save utility costs. This is a good idea, but some what hypocritical since when I suggested this technique for Frink excess heat be used to heat Victoria Hall the engineers and council in effect told me that this was stupid idea. Oh well, now it is their idea I suppose it is "state of the art".
The Mayor came up with an interesting question that had been asked of him by citizens, which was "where is the pool". He asked the CAO to answer the question and the answer was that the town had to prioritize its needs and that a pool might be part of a second phase and/or supplied by the Y if it moves. This answer raise two additional questions: Why is the town unable to meet everybody's needs with a budget of $27 million?, and also do they think lightening is going to strike Cobourg twice and that funding for a second phase is going to appear magically?
I watched the meeting as it was broadcast live on TV Cogeco.
I wondered how the order of the presentations was determined. It clearly was not alphabetical.
I had the feeling the order was important because it seemed that early presenters came off badly and the later ones did very well. Just coincidence? Was it stacked somehow?
The last presenter's answer on public art was very skillful and might have been a dealmaker.
A lot of these companies have done similar projects elsewhere in the province and around the country, some similar, some larger.
I think the meeting went a long way to reducing the opposition to the project. Councillors seemed probing. Bidders seemed competent and confident.
There were questions about operating costs. Answers were given but not in financial figures. They did give the indication that they understood where operating costs pitfalls would be and what can be done in construction to reduce that -- recycled heat instead of exhausting it, using state of the art insulation materials, etc -- and design -- making the building access points such that fewer staff can operate the building and deal with the public, etc.
These 5 buildings are designed to a silver LEEDS rating. This means the buildings are far more energy efficient than any of the current buildings being used -- pad 1 & 2 plus the senior citizens's centre. Take those off line as a deduction and sell them for a dollar to private enterprise. The other operating cost is staffing. This expense was addressed by three of the contenders in their design considerations, but then again, staffing is also dependent on how ambitious the community gets with its new centre.
Today's laugh-out-loud line, from Ben Burd: "... the building is going up for free ... ".
It will be many times funnier when we have to pay to run it, if you have a weird sense of humour
All this money from the upper two level of government to get people back to work and with all five bids how many local people will this construction help. Even after it is built only friends will get the jobs.
Interesting idea from Wally Keeler, but he's got it backwards. It's not the old town facilities that should be sold to private enterprise but the new community centre as soon as completed. That way Cobourg not only gets the new community centre we want but we avoid future maintenance and staffing costs. Best of all we also get our (and the prov and fed) money back to use again as we wish. We could use the proceeds to build another community facility, like a wellness spa and swimming pool (how about overlooking Lake Ontario in our underused trailer park?). And when that's completed (another two years of construction jobs), we can sell it to private enterprise too, and keep our windfall money rolling on building useful community infrastructure and creating jobs in Cobourg for years to come.
Wonder who prepped ole Bob Spooner to be a champion for dedicated girls' change rooms in the rinks?
It was to his credit that he did, but it's hard to imagine he thought of that all by himself.
I get it now. The meeting was NOT about the Cobourg Community Centre.
It was organized to give the esteemed Wally Keeler a chance to appear before his adoring public and to police the audience by taking photos to determine who among those in attendance is a supporter of The Burd Report.
"He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you are awake." So never call yourself progressive for goodness sake.
I'm checking the list twice, anonymouth.
What would make a girl's change room any different from a boy's change room?
It's Councillor Spooner being disingenuous.
Change rooms can be unisex. Whatever gender is using the room at the time is the "dedicated" user. That's all there is to it.
Spooner was looking to gain a few pushover points for his image. They're easy to obtain.
A comment from Port Hope
For a project such as Cobourg's new community centre, it is important to discuss not only how to constrain and control the cost, but also how to increase and realize the value of the centre for the common good.
The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives offers this paper examining the benefits of recreation for communities, examining a facility in Winnipeg.
Recreation produces enormous benefits for individuals, communities, and society as a whole. Low-income and marginalized communities often benefit the most from recreation, yet also face the most extensive barriers to participation....
This paper examines the role of Sherbrook Pool and how the Pool can provide the known benefits of recreation to the West Central community, as well as tackle some of the known barriers to participation and access.
Thanks for the input from Port Hope. I agree completely that this community centre MUST operate in a way that mitigates barriers to low income folk participating in the recreation that is so beneficial.
This would seem to be an obvious concern to be addressed given the chosen location of the CCC -- right next to 3 or 4 subsidized housing projects.
Just a quick note on location of the CCC. As Area 'C' develops in the east end over the next 20 to 30 years, the effective centre of the town will shift eastward and by default also cause the CCC to be closer to the 'population centre' of town. That's the official explanation, as I understood it, and it seems legitimate to me. Of course, the fact that the town owns that property and it is large enough to accomadate such a project has to be a major factor as well.
As far as barriers to average folk, the operating costs will have the major impact on that. If the response from one of the potential builders is any indication, keeping this recreation facility universally affordable will pose a rather daunting challenge. Funny thing is, the very parts of it that make it costly didn't need to be a part of it in the first place. The cost of a child participating in organized hockey is not something that is easily met by most lower income families so participation in that area is still going to be selective and somewhat exclusive. Too bad it had to be wrapped into the "Community Centre" concept, making it more of a sports centre than anything else. As I am prone to see this project, it will be difficult to operate it as a true "community" centre. That suggests to me that the usual exclusionary habits will find their way into the programing and result in a lot of shortcomings as the project develops its operations.
I hope I'm dead wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to keep those notions close by as things become more established. Better safe than sorry.
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