An uncrowded beach?
Sunday 8th August, 1.30pm - no crowds on the beach yet. Maybe the weather, maybe not a holiday weekend and not a weekend with an event to crowd out visitors. Many suppositions but the fact remains the beach only gets crowded when there is an event - volleyball, Canada Day, ribfest etc. So perhaps the answer to the problem may be the curtailing of the outreach activities by the Town, stop the tourists coming and keep the beach clear!
41 comments:
Ben-
I would like to add that I too just came back from a walk along the beach. What I noticed was that the visitors at our precious beach were doing the best to carry on as if it was sunny and 30 degrees out in some not so pleasant conditions. Playing volleyball... flying kites... enjoying the company of their extended families and friends.I congratulate and admire the resilience of our friends from all destinations.
And as I trekked back into the neighborhood surrounding the beach... the doors were closed, blinds shut, and absolutely zero activity around as if it was the dead of winter.
"the doors were closed, blinds shut, and absolutely zero activity around"(written at 4:55 pm in the afternoon - ref 'blinds shut')
Or, maybe the folks that live there had all gone elsewhere to be as far removed from what they expected to be another difficult weekend, but who's to know, eh?
Ben, your observation "the fact remains the beach only gets crowded when there is an event" holds true also for the fact that there are numerous events happening at this time in many other areas, such as the one on the Danforth, etc. I don't think its an accurate assessment when we look at each weekend on its own. We have to assess this from a much broader perspective to get the definitive understanding of all the issues on every side of the argument.
Maybe the Town should conduct a survey among the local businesses to find out whether the Town-organized events that bring the crowds actually result in increased patronage of the said businesses. Then at least we would know whether there is any financial pay-off.
Gail R wrote, "to find out whether the Town-organized events that bring the crowds actually result in increased patronage of the said businesses."
How would a survey be done? What questions would be asked? Who would ask the questions? Who would take the time to record the answers? Over what period of time? Should the furniture stores be surveyed? And what threshold of financial benefit should be established before Cobourgers act with goodwill towards the 'outsiders'? And if not enough cash is transferred, then how should Cobourg deal with them?
Anonymous wrote, "We have to assess this from a much broader perspective to get the definitive understanding of all the issues on every side of the argument."
Why? What arguement? There is no arguement. Over the past week, the demonization of the 'outsiders' is the only arguement that has been presented by the local smear newspaper, Northumberland Today.
Wally, you are being purposely obtuse! The town puts on events, for the most part, to be a financial benefit to the town and its businesses. After all, it costs money to stage the events. Should visitors come here to enjoy the park and beach, swim, sit in the sun - all the things we like to do - then they should be welcome. And hopefully they will amble up to King St. and patronise the restaurants, and stores, although probably not the furnitures ones. If we lure them here with special events that keep them tied to the beach that is probably where they will stay. Maybe en route to getting back on the 401 they will stop at a fast food joint, maybe not.
The events that bring financial benefit to the town are the ones such as the Old Movie festival in October, where patrons who want to enjoy the full programme have to stay over, eat, and have the opportunity to shop.
Gail R. wrote, "Wally, you are being purposely obtuse!"
Gail R suggested a survey be done. I asked questions relating to the survey. Gail R. declined to answer a single one. I was not insulting to Gail R.
Obtuse: a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity.
Who is being obtuse and insulting here?
When talk turns to the reasons the Town wants to organize and promote recreational events, it's a little disconcerting to learn that it's all done to maximize profits for local business.
Apparently meeting the needs of the humans who live and come here by creating healthy, positive environments and activities, has nothing to do with it.
The suggestion that a high toned event like the movie festival is better because it generates more income for business ignores a couple of realities: that the majority of people can't afford to partake in such expensive events, and that they'd have to stage them a lot more often than once a year for 3 or 4 days for that benefit to be meaningful.
It is to weep when the tedious mantra that business interests trump everything else becomes the standing order of operation for a whole community.
It's all so Charles Dickens. I doubt he'd find much had changed in Cobourg if he were to come this way again today.
Oh, to shake off the colonial shackles of Victorian thinking. How much longer can our esteemed Better Class cling to the past?
Wake up people! In the 21st century all of us have to learn to get along. We can no longer erect barriers to keep out people who might be different. We need to welcome and learn from them, as they do in return.
It's all one world and we must share it.
Here's the thing, Wally and Deb O - the beach events are organized by the Tourism Dept. The Tourism Dept. is part of the Economic Development Department. Ergo, people, the idea is, like it or not, to put money in the pockets of the local businesses. So that they can pay their taxes and fund more beach events etc. etc. If you would like to have these events staged by a totally fictional Fun and Games Department then that is what should happen. Different budget. Now - what I would like to see happen is that some of our visitors be invited to participate in a version of Food on the Danforth, so that we can sample all the delicious foods we smell being prepared. That would certainly get me to the beach!
Deb O makes an impressive point about the purpose of a public park.
Gail R asserts, "the idea is, like it or not, to put money in the pockets of the local businesses. So that they can pay their taxes and fund more beach events etc. etc."
The burden to Victoria Park is already excessive. There is absolutely no need for "more beach events etc. etc." The calendar is virtually saturated with commercial events.
There are other parks in Cobourg that are under-used. How about them? The Ribfest website boasts that they brought more than30,000 people to Victoria Park. Canada Day organizers boasted over 100 vendors turned Victoria Park into a tarpaulin-roofed North Slumber Bland Mall.
Keep commercial interests out of the park and in the business district where it belongs
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
Ribfest is a copy-cat event from other communities across the country.
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
The Danforth Dine-fest would just be another idea imported from The Big City.
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
Shakespeare-in-the-park happens in many many communities in Canada.
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
Sand castle contests is just like so like Miami Beach in California surf-drag.
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
Volley-ball championships are just like so like California surf-drag on Miasma Beach.
Does anyone in Cobourg have an original idea?
I have one.
which I will keep to myself for the time-being.
Why does it have to be an original idea to work? Just because Cobourg, or the brainboxes in Cobourg, didn't think of it first doesn't diminish the idea.
Ben asks, “Why does it have to be an original idea to work?”
It doesn’t “have to be” anything. Unoriginal ideas have a proven record as a lubricate to transfer treasure from a buyer to a seller. Every summer Victoria Park is so smothered and abused by many commercially unoriginal ideas, that there is little room for an original idea to break out. Oh, by the way, original or unique ideas also sometimes “work”. I find it peculiar that mostpeople feel discomfort about original ideas. I get exhilarated by original/unique ideas. But then again, I have them, often.
Ben asserts ”Just because Cobourg, or the brainboxes in Cobourg, didn't think of it first doesn't diminish the idea.”
It doesn’t diminish the idea of holding a successful commercial event. Such ideas are a dime-a-dozen. The Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet is a commercial event that makes Cobourg just like any other community. There is a multitude of tv programs and movies that are nothing more than a minute tweak of unoriginal formula, yet they are commercially successful ideas. Mediocrity appeals to mostpeople. Those with commercial motives know how to spread around the mediocrity to acquire treasure from the mostpeople. Unoriginal ideas are unforward-looking – they are retrograde. Unoriginal ideas make a community indistinguishable from any other community.
An unoriginal idea spreads and reinforces mediocrity, whereas an original idea overthrows the dead weight of mediocrity, which is nothing more than debris from bloated bland glands.
Me? I have a deep and profound preference for original ideas.
Why does anything have to happen? It's a beach, right? Does a beach need an event to make it a better beach? If so, why? The people coming from Toronto (or wherever) to enjoy the beach are attracted by water, the beach and a place to kick a ball around. They're not attracted, as Cobourgers are (or seem to be) by southern U.S. travelling pig roasters, itinerant carnies, Sno-Cones or CandyFloss. They're attracted to the beach, fresh air and the lake.
Would that I could say the same for us all...
nicely put, Merk
sure makes sense to me
It strikes me that most of our contributors here are quite “downtown-centric.” There are many businesses in Cobourg that may benefit from the mass crowds apart from those found on King Street. For example, if we presume that most of the people in the crowd during holiday weekends are from Toronto or beyond, then it is likely that a good few of them will require a fill-up of petrol before heading home. Gas is quite a bit cheaper out here in the sticks, especially in Cobourg for some reason unknown to me.
There are fast food joints on William Street that are also patronized by the visitors as well. I have seen this first-hand at both Tim’s and McD’s. The crowd outside the ice-cream shop at the foot of Division Street had to be at least 50 strong on the Sunday of the Civic Holiday Weekend as well. It is likely that some of the big box stores might be patronized on folk’s way to the beach, picking up items like towels, sand toys, and ice.
Although it is likely true that the downtown is the economic heartbeat of any town the size of Cobourg, all of this economic activity must be thought about when having a discussion like this. When you look at the type of businesses that operate in downtown Cobourg, which ones exactly scream “bring your family here!”? Most of the restaurants are budget busters for a large family, and most of the stores are geared toward empty-nesters who have finished antiquing in Port Hope. Let’s look at the whole picture and see that having that many people in the area has to be an economic boon for the town as a whole. To look at it from a downtown only perspective is foolish.
The only gripe that seems to “pass the sniff test” is the amount of garbage left behind. It strikes me, however, that if there were more/larger refuse bins, those in the park would be quite happy to fill them and not to have to surround the inadequate ones that currently exist. The argument that these people should take their garbage with them is not realistic. I suggest that very few people expect to bring their garbage home with them when they visit any beach or public space.
Thank you very much for your valuable perception, Pragmatist.
I also want to post a note of thanks to Armchair QB for providing this valuable perception:
"We forget the federal and provincial grants that went into the creation of the beach, harbour and related areas and choose to only acknowledge our local tax dollars at work. We forget the provincial subsidies available for police services, the federal grants that cover summer jobs. Sorry folks, but dollars from across Canada and Ontario contributed to our local gem, so your argument that it is "ours" doesn't hold water."
Ok Wally, here's a not quite original tourism idea, but why not have a Samba Festival on the Beach and downtown on Civic Holiday weekend when Cobourg has nothing on but a pathetic little sidewalk sale. Our sister city Coburg Germany has one of the biggest Samba Festivals in Europe, they say) and they don't even have a beach! Maybe they could give us some free advice, in a sisterly way.
See- http://www.samba-festival.de/
Wouldn't that be cool- hot Brazilian dancers, a cool lake, cold beer imported from Coburg, Germany and a downtown thronged with revellers.
Now about yours and others comment that our waterfront was financed by federal and provincial grants. NOT! The Town paid market price to Canada Lands Corp for the old railyards north of the harbour. The rest seems to have been paid by the Rotary and by Cobourg taxpayers. Meanwhile, the Feds have kicked in millions for Toronto's Harbourfront, the Downsview Park, and they're still at it. Finance Minister Flaherty was on hand with his checkbook just the other day to cheerfully contribute Federal tax dollars for Toronto's new Sugar Park on their waterfront. I'd like to know-where's the Federal contribution for our Cobourg taxpayer financed West Beach boardwalk extension or are we afraid to ask?
Coburg, Germany was very placid when I was last there.
If they can have a Samba festival without a lakefront, then so can we -- in James Cockburn Park. Go ahead critical1, organize it and I will surely attend.
In olden days there were federally funded Opportunities for Youth grants, Local Initiative Programs grants, and other Trudeau govt generosities. As Armchair QB said, summer jobs for students, subsidy for police services.
To critical1, unfortunately you are incorrect in your statement about federal and provincial support for the park / harbour area. It was done with support from all three levels of government, as well as support from service clubs. no matter how you want to cut it, dollars from outside our community have helped to pay for that waterfront area.
Still today, the Town benefits from support from the feds and province through transfer payments to support operating elements in Cobourg, as every municipality within our federation does. To claim that it was and is only Cobourg dollars that created and maintain that space is simply false.
Unfortunately you do not seem to be aware of this reality, hope the above has helped to inform you.
To Armchair QB--
Transfer payments for operating elements (whatever that means)is not the same as the outright grants in the millions given by the Feds to cities such as Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City (and no doubt others) to turn old industrial areas into waterfront parkland.
I'd like to be informed about this federal and provincial support you speak so confidently of. How about providing some numbers to back up your claims?
If Armchair QB believes we received lots of money, perhaps he can be specific.
Under Joan Chalovich, Baxter made you pay top dollars to sit your BBQ on the waterfront !
Allow me to refresh your memory on Joan Chalovich era : you paid for widening the road for Kraft General Foods,you received less development fees than other communities (to accomodate new manufactures),and finally the waterfront trailers always paid peanuts compared to everyone else while you are deprived from this gem a century-old park. Joan always had problems with her adding machine and her vision.
happy to respond to the still uninformed opinions of Anon and critical1.
here are but a few examples of the significant funds, and demonstrations of financial support for our waterfront from the feds and province. I am sure there are numerous others out there, perhaps you could inform yourself by doing a basic google search. I have backed up my claims.
Per the attached link, from Cobourg’s official history – http://www.cobourghistory.ca/assets/pdfs/Versace.PDF
The transfer and improvements of the harbor were completely covered by federal grant;
The construction of the current marina building in 1989 was covered by a $526,000 provincial grant;
The $780,000 of improvements in 1992 were shared locally and with the Waterfront Regeneration Trust, an organization founded and funded by the province and federal government;
In terms of your comparison of grants to Cobourg versus major cities, you are correct, Cobourg, population under 20,000, has received far less than Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, who have millions in population, significant economic activity, and are national hubs for tourism and other activity. Cobourg has definitely received its share of support over the years for this development.
As for Critical1's lack of understanding regarding ongoing support, why don't you have a look at the amount of funding that is transfered from both levels of government to the Town budget on an annual basis and where it is spent, I have pointed out where you can find the info, instead of asking me to spoon feed it to you, why don't you go do your own legwork.
As for Anon and his attack on Joan Chalovich (unsure why this has come up!) It was Chalovich and Read in their years as Mayor's of Cobourg that got this project started. Also, they did it during tough economic times. I am not following why the widening of a road at Kraft was a bad thing for our town, it has served to enable the flow of traffic from the 401 corridor to the downtown core and our waterfront with greater ease.
Anywho, clear examples above, clear direction on where you can find more info, and clearly backing up the claims I have made.
Cheers!
oh dear Armchair, don't be too hopefull that your information and clarifications will mean anything to or have any discernible impact on the the professional whiners that frequent this space. You expect far too much of them; they're fueled by dissatisfaction and reason only gets in their way. From the rest of the audience, many thanks for your info.
I'm sure you can figure out who the pros (or should that read cons) are here.
haha thanks Anon! Your posting brought a good smile and chuckle for me today - always nice to see a funny, AND accurate posting.
Mucho thanks Armchair QB for this valuable information. That should stuff the discharging pie-holes of the selfish and self-centred THE PARK IS OURS OURS OURS ALONE!!!!
Critical1 arrogantly boasted, "Now about yours and others comment that our waterfront was financed by federal and provincial grants. NOT!"
OK Critical One, now it's time for you to provide the facts to support your contention. Put up or shut up as the saying goes. C'mon, do it.
Armchair it's time you retire and rock on your porch.
It is important to check your facts from real sources, not from websites. You seem to be a firm believer in everything you read including our Local Newspaper which is fairly criticized by Wally. Don't be so naive.
Why Chalovich time,it's because it happened there, in front of me. Your tax bill increased a lot, since you voted for her twice. Baxter was a poor city administrator and now you deal with rubber stampers.
For the majority of Cobourgers, it's a lot easy to say to yourself, mediocrity is not bad, they are doing such a good job.
I dedicate to you and the Cobourg taxpayers the song Five to One, by Jim Morrison.
Wally knows the song well.
Anonymous - you have come back with a lot of bluster and arrogance, but to any reader on here, they can see that yet again, you are doing nothing more than simply spouting unsubstantiated statements.
I pulled up several references from a reputable site, backed up with specific figures and references. You have responded with a personal attack.
Would you be so kind as to prove, as you are so fond of demanding, that the taxes went up during the time period mentioned? Or that the Mayor and CAO did a poor job, and why? I speak in specifics, you are fond of sweeping generalizations.
Also, how do you know who I voted for? I said nothing to either support or reject Chalovich's work. Get some credibility and then come back to me, until then you are simply spouting hateful, unsubstantiated BS.
I can write a huge book with what you don't know. Unfortunately a lot are like you. People deserve the council they have elected !
Anonymous asserted, "It is important to check your facts from real sources, not from websites."
Anonymous is pumping irony; they haven't presented a single fact from any source to support their opinion, which has much nutritional substance as a slice of Wonderbread left out on a picnic table after a summer thunderstorm.
I believe you should consult yourself the minutes of the Corporation of the Town of Cobourg Mr. Armchair.
I have done my homework. It contains a lot --and you will have to learn also to read between the lines.
Dear Anonymous,
Unfortunately we can't play together anymore. It really is too bad, I was enjoying how we got off to a somewhat substantive start. Then you took this weird turn of not choosing to make any sense and to hurl insults rather than toss around ideas and debate facts.
If/when you come back to your senses, shoot me a line. But until then, I'm not going to engage with you, cause frankly, you give me the crazy vibe.
Anyone else that wants to have an actual discussion, I'm game.
Cheers!
Anyhow... No one owns the beach. No one really owns the land that we inhabit. We are only guardians for a very short time. I would like a town that I am proud to leave to my children. Unfortunately, it is obvious that we have a long way to go to achieve this.
with your outlook, you fit right in here. as the saying goes, misery loves company
Interesting comment by Deanno: "No one owns the beach" but the Town is certainly responsible for regulating its use, including cleaning the sand and emptying garbage bins.
Eventually, if present trends toward increased use continue, it would not be unreasonable to implement some kind of cost recovery from users to ease the burden on Cobourg taxpayers.
After all, if you bring a boat to the Marina or a trailer to the Campground, you have to pay for the privilege. And if you want to use the beach at Presqu'Ile or any other provincial campground, it will cost nearly $10 for a day pass.
Why should Cobourg beach be a free for all?
Victoria Park and beach are not a campground; or a provincial park; or a marina; or what ever else you might think up that charges for it's use. It is a park and public beach. Don't you guys get it??? A PARK AND A PUBLIC BEACH!! There are gadzillions of these such things around the world and guess what... those parks and public beaches are free as well.
Would you join a Country Club for god's sake if the gated lifestyle is what you prefer.
And if we could figure out a way to charge people for the air they breathe, we could really get rich!
Victoria Park was specifically designated as public space many generations ago by our forebears. They wanted people to have access to its beauty and be able to enjoy it whenever they wanted.
I, for one, appreciate and respect their wishes, and am grateful that my grand-daughters, like my kids, like me, and like my parents and their parents, are able to have this experience in our beautiful Park.
This is one tradition we should keep. My grand-daughters' children will thank us all for it.
My son crashed at my place last month while I was gone. He brought his Vietnamese girlfriend for the first time to Cobourg. Aside from me, their best time was Victoria Park & beach. It was free, that is to say, ungated. That meant everything.
Victoria Park and Beach is not a business. It is a common trust, to be rigorously distinct from a business district.
As I said before, I agree Victoria Park should be for the exclusive leisure of the people.
Victoria Park is just a few steps away from the historic architecture of the downtown, keeping its charm and appeal.
It is part of an Open Space Plan which aims to safeguard the survival of Cobourg's economic health and visual appeal.
Open space gives a place distinctive character. It relaxes the eye and soothe the spirit. It invites recreational use and enjoyment, cuts dust and noise pollution, could absorbs flood waters, provides wildlife with a natural habitat, filters poluted water and air, and moderates the climate with leafy windbreak and shade.
Wally and Armchair have a lot of time in their hands: The WA, WA team.
Why can't they organise the Samba Festival together ? Toronto will come here to rehearse here for free.Did you know that ?
One will promote his lovely poetry, the other can work hard contacting and also revising the Town's minutes in order to share wisdowm in its next professional presentation.
You will be a great pair !
:-)
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