A suggestion heard from a newcomer
As part of the ongoing discussion about the conditions on the beach: overcrowding, lack of local exclusivity and the inability to enjoy "beach conditions" because of the restrictions on beach vendors imposed by a Council beholden to DBIA influence the question was asked by the newest member of the BurdReport's extended Cobourg family, at the last family gathering - "why are there no vendors on the beach?"
Beach vendors - you know the type - hawkers of sunglasses, beach food, ice cream and other summery trashy stuff. The only answer available was that Council in it's wisdom has never allowed anybody other than the concessionnaire to be in business at the beach. "Why is that" was the next question. "Because the DBIA has always complained about the vendors, if allowed don't pay taxes and support the local community."
So here's the suggestion: allow the DBIA members to sell their wares on the beach and in the Park. If they don't want to and a case can be made for that, if they don't want to open on Sundays why would they bother to sell stuff in the Park; allow unrestricted "Pedlars and Hawkers licences" to be issued. The DBIA cannot have it both ways complaining vociforously enough to kowtow Council and then not take advantage of the monopoly they have created.
Just a suggestion.
33 comments:
as a member of the DBIA, I offer some points of clarification.
The letters DBIA stand for "Downtown Business Improvement Area" Membership is not optional and every business and property in the area defined by the enabling Bylaw is assessed an annual "tax" which provides the operating funds for the organization. There are no public funds contributed to the organization. There is an annual $10,000 subsidy for sidewalk and parking lot cleaning and the DBIA pays to the municipality an annual Parking assessment of $25,000.
The mandate of the DBIA is threefold; Beautification of the area, Promotion of the area as a business area and Maintenance of the area over and above what the municipality performs.
There is no mention of nor intent for "protection" or "preference" on a business basis. Members operate independently of the DBIA and rely on their own resources.
As a member for more than 33 years, I have not heard a single argument made favouring protection or preference.
The one point that has and continues to cause some concerns is the levy of municipal taxes that would disadvantage DBIA properties because those taxes are not a cost of doing business for holders of Hawkers and Peddlers Permits, creating an unfair advantage for those permit holders. It is an inaccurate characterization of the relationship between the DBIA and the Town to suggest that it holds, presumes to hold or wishes to hold any influence with the municipality in such matters.
I suggest that the reasons behind the current state of waterfront commerce lie elsewhere and that research into those reasons would support that suggestion.
A simple written request addressed to the Town for permission to conduct commerce on public property at the waterfront would provide a written response from the municipality as to the rationale for its rejection.
Hopefully this somewhat lengthy comment will clarify the DBIA's role and correct some of the erroneous assumptions that surface every now and then, much to the disappointment of this member.
While this is not provided in an official capacity, I am willing to answer or obtain answers to any questions or concerns that arise from this comment.
Just back from our very lovely beach area, and as there where only a handful of people on the board walk or the beach ,I was wondering if any of the complainers where using the area or are they setting at home tryingnto figure out their next move in keeping people from using the area.
The idea of local vendors adding to the attractions of Victoria Park is infectious.
This year the Lions' and Lioness' Pavilion has acquired iron railings so that park users can no longer use it for shelter ( why was it built?). However these railings now have a bonus a feature as they can be used to hang paintings that local artists could display and hopefully sell.
Once a year at the Canada Day Festival the Lions and Lionesses allow booths from artists from across Ontario and other provinces to sell their wares. Allowing use of the railings for local artists during the rest of the year redresses the balance, and provide a new attraction.
(The idea of selling art on park railings is not new. It is done in Hyde Park in London and art is sold by the Seine in Paris. Of course I probably shouldn't mention this as it makes it a foreign idea, and thus potentially unsuitable for Cobourg.)
people move here to get away from what they want to avoid and then when they get here they find out that still want what they don't have anymore, insanity. they like the small town atmosphere and the small town life but can't do without the big city thinking so they try to change that to make it like old home, insanity. they look for big city issues to carp about because that's what they are familiar with, even if they have to make things up or twist them to look like big city issues so they see stuff that's not there, insanity. who ever made the beach issues into racial issues, big city folk who know nothing else, as far as that goes, the problems at the beach all seem to stem from poor and bad behavior by anyone who is prone to such behavior, period. it's the denouncers of racissm that see it as a race problem, even when it's not, they are just so fixated on looking for racist undertones in everything they want to attcak. Get a life! Bad behavior is just that, bad behavior, and its not limited to any particular demographic. Tolerance is not about tolerating bad behavior so don't throw racism into the issue just to give you an excuse to denounce it and make yourselves feel superior for being tolerant, hogwash. its not about you, even though you want it to be. the problem is BAD BEHAVIOR, plain and straight, nothing else, and it needs to be addressed as such, despite the protestations of the tolerantia who want it to be what its not.
"the problem is BAD BEHAVIOR, plain and straight, nothing else"
OK, so tell us just what that entails? Please identify the specific BAD BEHAVIOUR to which you are referring.
How it is "a beach fiasco" of "epic proportions" (according to Anita Steins) or so "like a free-for-all in Victoria park" and "a nightmare" that "heads should roll"(according to yellow journalist, Pete Fisher)
It must have been very egregious BAD BEHAVIOUR. And just whose BAD BEHAVIOR are we talking about? The locals?
I was born here 63 years ago and raised here, and live here right now, a block away from Victoria Park. I know very well that the locals are overwhelmingly white-skinned. Are they the source of the Victoria Park problem?
According to Pete Fisher it stems from "the sheer number of people visiting Cobourg.". Concerned citizen, Anita Steins, who hasn't stepped onto Cobourg's beach once this year, asserted that, ""Those who come here to enjoy our free beach rarely are the kind who spend any money here. They have their day, ignore our laws, leave their trash and go home." Another Cobourg resident, Steven MacLaughlin, declared that, "Our park and beach both stink with garbage and outsiders".
Three 'authors' all concur that blame belongs to the outsiders.
Every day when I go to the park, I notice that the majority of The Outsiders bear a dna configuration that is visibly different from The Locals.
The whole thing is nothing more than cheap yellow journalism by Northumberland Today. If they had any ovaries, they'd find the Victoria Park situation a golden opportunity for a human interest story. Why can't the local MSN see stories to be told, at least once a year.
Interview some of these outsiders. Find out why they find Cobourg and its park and beach so wonderfully attractive. Ask a few questions about how it compares to their experiences from their countries of origin. Human interest.
The miserable petty Northumberland Today should be calling for its own heads to roll, and send a reporter out to the field, where all kinds of immigrants are feeling good in a feel good park in a feel good town in a great feel good country. Now that is the story to get, and the journalista elite in this town haven't the ovaries (for the most part) to pursue it. Shame.
WK wrote "And just whose BAD BEHAVIOR are we talking about? The locals?" and "Three 'authors' all concur that blame belongs to the outsiders"
These look like his response to straightshooters comments "Bad behavior is just that, bad behavior, and its not limited to any particular demographic" and "the problem is BAD BEHAVIOR, plain and straight, nothing else, and it needs to be addressed as such". WK obviously doesn't get it. He says "I notice that the majority of The Outsiders bear a dna configuration that is visibly different from The Locals." Who's talking race now? and how in the hell does he know that any of the people he sees on his travels are outsiders, are they wearing plaques or signs of some sort? Just why the hell does he think their outsiders, gimme a break, will ya? WK is so intent on making it a race issue, he can't see the bbq's and open cooking fires for the grass (weed, y'know). well the world according to Keeler is all screwed up, but I'm not sure that its the world thats screwy.
Why is it that some get all bent up when their ideas are rebuffed but they can't bring thenselves to see what anybody else sees out there.
while we're at it, maybe Ken J should take more than one stroll before coming to such a cockamamy conclusion. gotta love that whole head in the clouds thing, eh.
Straightshooter-
The articles/letters to the editor published in the newspapers are clearly pointing fingers at the size of the crowds attributing that the main problem being the size of the groups. There has even been a reference on how they smell.
If your personal issue is "BAD BEHAVIOR" then that is fine.It would be nice though if you would define what it actually means in you eyes so that you do not continue to look like you are supporting the clearly racist views of some of the locals that live around here.
My personal opinion, from a transplant from a large city one year ago, goes like this. How can a town, only one hour away from Canada's largest economic multicultural engine, can believe it has the right to live in a time long ago that most feel ashamed about. Cobourg is a small town. There is no need for it to get much bigger than the space it already occupies. But... small town charm does not mean you get to pick and choose who you want to visit your quaint community. Small town charm has always been about welcoming all to a slower pace so that all can sit back and relax, even if it is for just one afternoon.
'straightshooter' shouts, "how in the hell does he know that any of the people he sees on his travels are outsiders, are they wearing plaques or signs of some sort?"
It seems that "straightshooter' failed to graduate from reading and comprehension 101 or grade 12 Ontario.
Their dimming wit doesn't seem to notice that it is Pete Fisher, Anita Steins and Steven MacLaughlin who assert that it is outsiders.
'straightshitter' redundantly claims, "WK is so intent on making it a race issue, he can't see the bbq's and open cooking fires for the grass (weed, y'know)."
I saw the bbqs and campfires. I went through the park the next morning. There was no damage done to the park lawn. Compare this with The Locals via Ribfest, who had done far more damage to the park lawn -- see photo documents of this assertion HERE.
The slanderous assertion of criminality -- "grass (weed y'know)" is easily made by spineless cowards hiding behind pseudonyms.
straightshitter demands proof of racism. OK, then straighshitter should provide proof of their assertion that I was stoned on weed when perusing the park.
Elementary justice demands that the accused has the right to face their accuser, but 'straightshitter' doesn't believe in natural justice because they are too cowardly stand by their own words. straighshitter reminds me of the islamaniac idiots who demand their women testify in court while concealing their facial identity.
Funny, out of 9 comments on this thread, only 2 of them are remotely related to the topic: allowing vendors to sell their products on the beach.
That bugs me as much as the tripe posted by the multitude of anonymouses.
Both habits detract from the quality of the discussion.
As to vendors selling sunglasses, I don't care, but a couple of well placed hot dog carts would make me very happy. They could be run by the folks who operate the beach hut, which would alleviate DBIA concerns, provide a few more jobs, and make it easier for people to get a meal without long line ups.
They could even sell vegan hot dogs to satisfy that bunch, like they do in Toronto. There are also ways to process the meat to satisfy religious concerns so anybody could enjoy them. I'm talking halal and kosher in case some of our small town neighbours are wondering.
What could be wrong with that?
Deb O off-topically posted, "Funny, out of 9 comments on this thread, only 2 of them are remotely related to the topic: allowing vendors to sell their products on the beach. That bugs me as much as the tripe posted by the multitude of anonymouses.
Both habits detract from the quality of the discussion."
I guess Deb O can comment off-topic but anyone else doing it bugs her, but then again, if a commentator attaches an on-topic comment they are exempt, sooooo, following Deb's lead, I'd like to add that vendors in the park is OK with me, including vendors who couldn't care less about anyone's religious concerns aka stupidstitions.
The present person with the Canteen in Victoria park has a lease which gives them exclusive foods sales in the park. They are compensated by organizations who hold events there and also sell food. The present lease was signed some time ago before the park became popular and when the Town was just trying to get anyone to take on food concession there as it was a losing proposition. Not sure when the lease expires. Tourism is a business and should be run as such. People expect when you go to a tourist spot to have many attempts at legally getting into their pockets with a smile on. Disney for one is a good example of once you get the people there as to how to make revenue from it. Cobourg is halfway there. They already have the people coming. Now make it pay!
WK said "It seems that "straightshooter' failed to graduate from reading and comprehension 101 or grade 12 Ontario. Their dimming wit doesn't seem to notice that it is Pete Fisher, Anita Steins and Steven MacLaughlin who assert that it is outsiders" Of course he left off WK's comment.
Straightshooter noticed the comment from WK which reads "Every day when I go to the park, I notice that the majority of The Outsiders bear a dna configuration that is visibly different from The Locals."
note his own words "I notice that the majority of The Outsiders" so I ask again, what's he bin smokin'?
deanno said "How can a town, only one hour away from Canada's largest economic multicultural engine, can believe it has the right to live in a time long ago that most feel ashamed about"
that looks like it smears the whole town with the same brush, but his other statement "racist views of some of the locals that live around here" doesn't jive with his first one. confuses the hell out of me.
to make it clear, I said "the problems at the beach all seem to stem from poor and bad behavior by anyone who is prone to such behavior, period." I'm talking about the problems that have been listed by those who do the complaining. if you don't think of them as bad behavior, I wonder what fits that description for you.
as for "How can a town... believe it has the right to live in a time long ago that most feel ashamed about", as far as I can tell, people usually move to areas that appeal to them, including the general attitude that seems to prevail. It does not mean that there are no other views or attitudes there, even though they might not be the dominant ones. There is such a thing as freedom of expression which does not require anyone else to agree with it, but still means they are free to express themselves within the bounds of the law.
Your free to hold your views and opinions about all of these things, just like the others who you disagree with, and you chose to move here anyway. the issues you are bothered by have been around since before you arrived so its not like you had no idea of the problems, right?
straightshitter asked, ""I notice that the majority of The Outsiders" so I ask again, what's he bin smokin'?"
Of course straightshitter has to remain pseudononymous, otherwise they wouldn't be able to make public accusations of criminal activity on my part. The veil of cowardice lies heavy on straightshitter.
My observation stands. I am a daily eyewitness to Victoria Park. Oh, by the way, I have sat down and talked with the visitors. I didn't ask them to show me their identity papers -- they told me where they are from. Here is a little video I made of the issue last year.
straightshitter takes a deep inhale of powerful marijuana and asserts, "who ever made the beach issues into racial issues, big city folk who know nothing else."
I know that I am not big city folk. I was born in this small town 63 years ago, raised in this small town. So the big city folk must be Anita Steins, or Steven MacLaughlin or Pete Fisher. So straightshitter, can you support your contention that these individuals are "big city folk who knowing nothing else?"
C'mon, give us the straight shit you spineless pseudononymous coward. I take ownership of my perceptions, I'm not ashamed or embarrassed like straightshitter who feels compelled to make accusations like a coward.
straightshitter is a coward. That assertion is easily provable.
Ok WK is a smoker and Straightshooter is a coward, let's leave it at that!
Let's make it abundantly clear: I WAS NOT HIGH ON MARIJUANA NOR ANY OTHER INTOXICATING SUBSTANCE WHEN I MADE MY PARK OBSERVATIONS NOR MY SUBSEQUENT COMMENTS.
Deb O wrote, in part, “which would alleviate DBIA concerns”. I’m very interested in Deb O’s contention that the DBIA has concerns about this, and the evidence that supports her statement. I cannot recall a published statement from the DBIA that indicates such official concerns do in fact exist.
As I attempted to explain in my first comment, to the best of my knowledge, in the past, the DBIA has only expressed concerns with respect to the implications of the Hawkers and Peddlers Permit fees and how they impact the cost of doing business for the parties concerned.
It would be interesting to get a response from the Beach Hut operator on Deb O’s suggestion, but my own view leads me to believe that operating 3 separate stations versus 1 in what is essentially the same business location would lead to greater overhead and likely result in higher prices for the same product we have now. While it may reduce wait times, probably not a strategic business move.
to Wally
The law of unintended consequences kicked on my little comment.
I believe you were not under the influence of anything other than free-thinking when you took your wals in the park, or at any other time - just convince straightshooter!
to Manfred
The fact remains somebody has convinced Council that issuing H&P licenses is an unfair situation, because the people who pay full taxes to do business in Town are shortchanged by the H&Ps. But if the regular business people either close on the weekend (or part of it) and refuse to sell in the park, or try to, then the Town is losing an opportunity to make money from H&P licenses.
Besides if the Town kowtows to the business lobby and refuses to issue H&P licenses why bother having them?
Straightshooter- I must confess, as you mentioned, I did not throughly investigate the community when choosing to bring my family here. Though... in my defense, I thought this superior race thing had been finally dealt with some seventy years ago; that my children would not be subject to this disgusting mindset.
As someone else mentioned, it would be nice if you could post the "whites only in Cobourg" sign on the 401 so future transplants do not make the same mistake I did.
Mr. Schumann wants us to think that the town operates without considering the viewpoint/lobby of the DBIA. He is quite confident, however, that "A simple written request addressed to the Town for permission to conduct commerce on public property at the waterfront would provide a written response from the municipality as to the rationale for its rejection."
How can Mr. Schumann be so confident that it would be rejected, unless he feels assured that the town would not go against the wishes of the DBIA. Further, although he says that the DBIA is only concerned about the fact that taxes/assessment fees would not be paid by the venders. Yeah right, just like doctors are only concerned about providing quality health care. There is always one other concern: MAXIMIZING PROFIT.
Hundreds of other towns in Ontario would kill to have Cobourg's problem of "too many tourists."
Pragmatist wrote "How can Mr. Schumann be so confident that it would be rejected, unless he feels assured that the town would not go against the wishes of the DBIA"
I'll repeat "I suggest that the reasons behind the current state of waterfront commerce lie elsewhere and that research into those reasons would support that suggestion."
I have been present at council meetings and heard first hand, the discussions and arguments for and against open commerce on public property, which includes the beach. The town council has discussed this issue before and made the decision some years ago with respect to all public properties, not just downtown. As I said, do the research before you jump to and promote inaccurate conclusions. That serves no purpose. It is the existing policy that makes the rejection essentially a foregone conclusion.
Anyone who thinks this is a bad policy can freely petition council to reopen the debate and make a case for changes, and I suggest the folks who are disturbed by that policy should be the first to take up the torch and march on town hall. After all, they show little confidence in council to make the 'good' decisions, especially when they do not coincide with their own.
On this same topic, during those policy discussions, the town asked the DBIA for its input and the concern about inequitable business costs was the only one returned in the response, because the general membership felt that was a legitimate business issue and they had been asked for their opinion and input. That, my friend, is what I explained at the beginning and bears repeating since you missed it the first time, and the second time.
to Ben - I was not aware that the town is not issuing H&P permits. I do recall that the cost of these permits was reduced from a hefty sum to a nominal amount, on instruction from the province who said the town could not charge a fee that would balance the cost of business issue. Until then, the DBIA had no concern even on that score, but when the town reduced the fee to, I believe, $20, (on instruction from the province) that created a significant imbalance and everyone who seeks to earn an income is sensitive to unfair practices, including employees and employers alike. It is this imbalance that was articulated in the response by the DBIA to the town's request for their input on the issue. If the town has made a decision to minimize or avoid issuing permits, and I don't know that they have, but if they have, it may well be because they are aware of the impact such an imbalance has on business everywhere in town, and is likely the reason the fees were what they were before that.
After all, we taxpayers are always screaming that business isn't paying their fair share but we're not willing to acknowledge that business can only pay more if it makes more. It's the reality of economics, my friend and even though we'd like to have it both ways, we can't, and I think you probably agree, reluctantly I'm sure.
Funny how the business community, despite being proudly and loudly capitalist, gets up in arms, demanding government intervention, any time it looks like there's a little honest competition going on.
Their alleged hatred of regulations evaporates rather quickly in the face of upstart new enterprises that threaten the old ways of doing business.
If somebody running a hot dog cart threatens the viability of local restaurants, then they don't have much of a business to start with, do they? And how many of them close down promptly at 5 pm, just when people get hungry?
You can't have it both ways, my friends. If you're in business, then stay open. Even a socialist like me recognises that if a business is closed, it's not making any money at all.
It's time the DBIA and the Chamber of Commerce took a flying leap back into the past where they belong, along with all the other Victorians who think they can dictate conditions for the rest of us.
Let's bring on the free market, free wheeling capitalism they all claim to support. Then we'll see who is really willing to work to earn their profits.
SUMMER BUSINESS?
Vendors: a hot-dog vendor in this town could make over $35,000. a summer and will pay $250. in taxes.Put them all on the beach and you will see a disaster.
Is it fair to someone who has a building, staff, expenses, high taxes: no.
----DBIA paid $80,000. in business taxes under Joan Chalovich. What do they get in return? They should get at least their sidewalk ploughed in the winter.----
Now, if restaurants serve mediocre food and are closed at meal time this is another issue.
CONSEQUENCES?
A lot of shoppers are taking the 401 to see diversity and variety, choice and quality.
Everybody heard of the Buffalo suicidal wings, Montreal Pool-room steamed hot dogs, fun EATING in diners, etc... They are opened late and they are all POLITE, INTERESTED TO PLEASE, welcome to our Historic Town, etc...
Simplicity and quality are not in this Town. We opt for modern kitch and are pretentious about it. What about small intellectual cafés with interesting newspapers,(English, Spanish and French) magazines,journals,(no music or sport news imposed) with a good coffee, strawberrie pies and real home made cakes, let people talk and do their own things, with their computers and friends. Everywhere I travel I found tons of them, except here in Cobourg, the no-fun zone.
Now, as far as Canada day is concerned, it has nothing but duck art ! shopping and eating trash. I think it's time to compete and have other festivals: less organized and with more fun, will include our HISTORY and be FREE. Dancing contests, dancing in costume d'epoch,taking pictures in them, flying kites, cake contests, pie contests, free sand castles with amateur picture contests, holding apples between parners, making water colour on the spot, folk songs: guitar playing, French and English songs, guitar playing, history of the costume, plays,re-enactments, dart games,chow-chow sold by individuals, the history of the bread !
People will go shopping if they find the Town interesting in history, welcoming and clean. Our parks have a lot of annuals which is costly and should have flowering shrubs like before and more willows for shade (skin cancer is a problem in Town). We have an awful long way to go in this Pleasantville, we understand only two colours : black and white !
"Some people will always be poor by choice". (Bob Lucas)
If hot dogs are that lucrative howcum none of the downtown merchants want to get involved? Perhaps the 10 weeks of summer is not worth it to them but them let someone else have a chance, even if the license is only $25.00. It is $25.00 that the Town never had before
and it probably cost us $45 all told to issue it, great business sense there Mr Burd
you see, that's what's missing in all of these arguments, sense, common sense, business sense, sense of any kind. Why don't any of these idea people get off their duffs and do what they are criticizing others for not doing? They all want business to be the great saviour and provide all the gravy but none of them are willing to risk a nickel to have a go at showing us how its done. Noise-makers and Hypocrites!
what a load of bollocks anonymous the people issuing the license get paid to issue licenses - it's their job. Until we pay the bureaucrats on a piecework system don't play games with how much it costs to issue licenses. Besides if you had read previous posts it's the province that sets the rates so we are stuck with the low rate.
are you sure about the province setting the rates? how do you know that? Did you say earlier that the town isn't selling licences, and if so how are they getting even that $25?
Uh...Ben...
For those of us trying to follow this....just exactly which 'anonymous' are you replying to?
I count at least three.
Martin Partridge posted in the local papers, MY IDEAS RE VICTORIA PARK & THE BEACH “Enforcement is essential. Scofflaws undermine the rules and make us look ridiculous. Garbage and environment are big issues. How about a daily ‘environment fee’ for non-resident adults? Parking is another big issue. Why don’t we stop non-resident car access to the core on busy days? Force guests to walk in from further away. They’d bring less stuff and maybe visit downtown en route.”
The first two sentences I would dismiss as legal tough talk which caters to the Corktown crowd. It’s a throwaway.
” Garbage and environment are big issues.
No problem for the garbage. More bins and weekend overtime for staff for the really really busy weekends.
” How about a daily ‘environment fee’ for non-resident adults?”
How do you collect it? How do you ascertain whether someone is resident or not? How many staff will be delegated to carry this out. Will this be a summer job? Or special weekends only? Will Northumberland residents get a weekend exemption for Northumberland Ribfest, but others outside Northumberland pay full fee? Where will the checkpoints be?
” Parking is another big issue. Why don’t we stop non-resident car access to the core on busy days?”
Really? Is this a serious question? On busy days, we stop cars to check their residency status? Create a traffic nightmare? And where would the checkpoints be placed? Can’t do that to Provincial Highway 2 aka King Street. So how ya gonna carry this out? How many staff will be involved to carry this out? This is one of the most bizarre ideas I have ever heard.
”Force guests to walk in from further away.”
Don’t ya just love it when a political hopeful is honest enough to use the word “force”. Because I live within half a block of Victoria Park, I assume that I live within ‘the core’, so does that mean that out of town residents who want to visit me will be held up, forced to pay an environmental fee and then walk a block or two just to visit me. I could never imagine treating a guest like that – how inhospitable can you get?
”They’d bring less stuff and maybe visit downtown en route.”
Stuff? Is that the idea. The problem with the park is that outsiders bring stuff. What? Blankets? Umbrellas? Children’s toys? Folding chairs? Coolers? Propane BBQs (They’re legal), Beach balls, Volleyballs? Etc. Yep, the loutsiders will feel the hospitality of this feel good attitude. What’s with the “maybe”? I’d want to be far more certain that the loutsiders do visit downtown and buy stuff, before I’d set residency checkpoints on all streets leading to “the core.”
Check a bit of Cobourg history. Victoria Park was privately owned in 1874, but was always accessible to the public. That is the legacy of this park. Mr Partridge would have us diminish this legacy with his suggestions. No Vote for this.
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